Be Real - Why Pretending Everything's Fine Is Hurting Your Business - Marc Johnson

speaker-0: Have you ever turned up to a networking event and said things are going well, even when they're not quite where you want them to be?

speaker-1: In this episode, Mark shares his one thing, be real and why trying to prove yourself can actually hold you back.

speaker-0: We get into the pressure to have it all figured out, especially early on, and how easy it is to end up wearing a bit of a mask.

speaker-1: And what happens when you drop that mask, have proper conversations, and realise everyone else is dealing with the same stuff too?

speaker-0: This is What One Thing.

speaker-1: So let's get straight into it. Your what one thing is be real. I'm really curious about what was happening in the business or maybe even your life that led up to that being your one thing.

speaker-2: I think a lot of it really comes down to age and perception. So when you start out in your career, you know, very little. I knew exactly that very little about anything. I came into the payroll world. I was sort of brought into that, not knowing anything about payroll. And you start to get to a point where you feel you've got a big point to prove. I certainly did come in from a family business. So my father was the managing director and my mother was a one of the other directors, 50 % shareholders. So it was entirely their domain. And as I came in, I felt I had a point to prove that I have to know everything. I have to be the best. And through doing that, you sometimes end up, you know, putting a bit of a mask on, that's not who you really are. You you feel you've got to prove a point. And I think a lot of people end up that sort of situation where particularly in networking events to go in, yes. My business is doing so well and everything's peachy and the staff are amazing and we've got the best team, but that's not really what's happening. That's just the story they want to tell. But I've tended to find that it's a lot better to just sort of sit back and go, yeah, it's not going quite as expected, but we are doing X, Y and Z. And that's where the be real element comes in and being able to be approached by people.

speaker-0: And was there a specific moment or something that happened specifically that made you sit back and go, you know what, I'm not going to tell that story. I'm actually just going to be real.

speaker-2: think a lot of it was when I sort of reached a point where naturally I could talk about what it was that I did, how I could solve problems for people. And I think that started to sort of bring it more to reality. But to be honest, it was more through networking with people and actually going beyond the basic networking. So a lot of events that I was going to were, you know, quite sort of high brow events, you might say. But actually the best bits of networking were either in the pub beforehand or the bar afterwards because everybody lets their hair down and you can discover who is actually the genuinely good person that you want to surround yourself with. And it was, I say going to those events where I kind of went actually, we get the most out of this when I can sit and have a real conversation about life with people, not, ⁓ the business has got to... A bit da of X or Y. Well, nobody cares. That's the most boring thing on planet Earth. But the fact that you've got a family, you're going on holiday, there's this happening, that's happening, business is growing, but there's been some challenges. They're the real conversations because they're the problems everybody else has under their mask and they don't want to talk about it. But if you can have those conversations more forwardly, people will lift their own mask up and go, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, last year we barely made a profit. It was a nightmare. I've got this person that thinks they're going off sick and then they decide that they're no longer sick. We've got all sorts of problems and you can have a better conversation and people want to buy from people. So it helps the business grow.

speaker-0: There's a vulnerability in that though, isn't there, as well? And I think that's probably why sometimes people may be shy away. Because to actually sit there and say to somebody, to your peers, I suppose, and people that if you're networking, you're trying to build relationships with, so ultimately you want them to either refer clients to you or become clients, to sit there and go, I'm actually not doing very well. That can actually feel quite scary.

speaker-2: Yes, but you got to build the relationship with them as well. So you can open the conversation and ask better questions of people. Don't be sitting there going, how was your weekend? What do you, how's business? Start to reframe that a little bit and say, okay, what, what challenges are you currently facing? What's the biggest high you've had in the last six months of business? You know, what things are you proud of? What, you know, what things are you less proud of, but also, you know, as you start to open that conversation, don't be scared to start to share some of your things as well, because naturally that will drive the conversation in that direction. So if you have somebody has business and they go, yeah, good. Well, okay. How do we move that conversation forward? But if you go, actually what's the biggest achievement that you've had in the last 12 months? There's a discussion point. and you can build on that and build that rapport.

speaker-1: I think that's really key as you get into that rapport, because I'm sure we've all been there as well, where we ask someone what's your biggest challenge and they explain it. You talk about, you ask them another question and they explain it and you're thinking, okay, at some point are they going to ask me? But often people haven't played that game. How would you suggest to somebody to, would you say to have some pre-written questions or what would be the first step?

speaker-2: think the first step and to be honest, maybe we'll go back to when we first met and the business expo that we're at never met each other before. Walked up, had a conversation. You were saying how's business? I was like, yeah, that's fine. But then I was able to share a little bit more and say business is doing okay. But you know, we've, grown 15 % last year, which is quite a staggering sort of growth piece. That's bringing about challenges and then You can then pick up asking about those things. So you're going, okay, what challenges are you facing? And you're building a conversation. Then you can start to turn that round. So not, you know, not only are we talking about my business, but then we can have the same level of conversation about your business or about your job or about your career. And it obviously depends who you're talking to, but it allows a much better way to build relationships. And that can be with anybody. ⁓ doesn't necessarily have to be professionally. You know, if you're in a sports club and you're, you know, you've joined in a new team, ask the same sort of style of questions, but allow it to, know, yourself to commit a little bit, but don't be oversharing. Nobody wants an oversharing cause that's boring.

speaker-0: So the question I had is coming from a family business, so the way that it would have been run by your mum and dad and then you coming in and taking over and embracing this way of being. Did that create any conflict?

speaker-2: Yes, because when I first started, you know, the business had 12 staff members, plus, I'm sorry, my parents. I was at the bottom of that particular ladder. And gradually as I started to build my knowledge, make the mistakes of pretending to be something I wasn't or no more than I did, that, you know, that's going to rub people up the wrong way potentially. But also. what people, you know, where the conflict came in is where potentially when I went from being beneath somebody, you know, in the hierarchy to then being on a level with them and potentially then even managing them. fact, be honest, I don't think it was anybody I went from beneath to managing. Most of the time it was to being on a level with and then, you know, the people I had conflict with were very much, well, you only got this job because... Your dad gave it to you or your mom gave it to you with that. wasn't true necessarily. mean, there's an element of that. ⁓ but actually I still had to prove my worth and you know, the conversation I had, ⁓ with my dad and it was very clear about this. When I took the job was this is for nine months and you're covered maternity leave. And when those people come back, you will need to go and find another job. And that was how it was laid out to me. You know, there was no. golden handout, I was given the same salary as anybody else. I was not given any, you know, perks that nobody else had. And in fact, one of the sort of tougher lessons it gave, my dad gave me was around sort of talking about people's salaries. And this is always a slightly amusing one because I said, you know, we did the review with somebody on my team and it was the first one that I'd done. You know, my dad turned to me and said, so what percentage salary are going to be increasing by them for this person? And then I went, okay, well let's, you know, at the time our customers were doing, you know, a lot of people were doing sort of two, 3 % salary increases. I thought this person has done quite well. We'll go with five. ⁓ which, know, in those days, salaries were a lot smaller. So the monetary value was a lot less. And so then, you know, a few weeks later, my review came around and I sat down and, ⁓ you know, my dad turned around to me and he went, okay. So salary increases 5%. ⁓ okay. So, well, it's good enough for your staff and it's good enough for you. I was like, okay. You know, you sometimes get a little bit of tough medicine that way.

speaker-1: I think one of the things on the keeping it real that we all have as business owners is that you go from, and this is true of everything in life. You go from day one, you are not a business owner. You're not, in my case, a boxing coach. You're not whatever. You get a certification, you get a promotion, and then you're a new person. And I think there's a huge amount of pressure to become a character that you think you should be. What kind of advice would you give to people in that situation? Because you do want to be yourself, but at the same time, you know, there is a lot of pressure to conform or to try and become somebody that you think you should be.

speaker-2: The definitely is, but you need to rise a little bit above that and go, the person that I am, recognise who you are, but make sure that you can use that to your advantage. So people buy from people. People like to work with people they can spend 40 hours or 35 hours a week with. You know, you don't want to be sat in an office where your boss is just there glaring at you going, right, you're not doing your work chop chop faster. You want to be able to take a breath and go, ⁓ this thing's happening at home and it's really stressful. You know, the, the bathrooms flooded, the kids have done X, Y, Z. Well, then you can have a conversation about that. You know, there's the way in which that I sort of try to manage people is You know, be as real as we can. have real conversations about life and that can be anything. Be births, deaths, marriages, divorces. You know, when people come to work for me, I hire everybody with the view and the vision that they're going to be with me forever. I know the reality is obviously different, but I expect that they're going to go through turbulent times. We're going to have illnesses. There's going to be bereavements. There's going to be other major milestones. Well, let's talk about them. They're going to have their own personal challenges. So a great example was, I've been quite heavily involved in the apprenticeship schemes and recruiting apprentices. So in the last sort of 13, 14 years, we've had over 30 apprentices. Not all have made it, course, know, some fall by the wayside, but I have had a couple of notable. staff members that have been with me for 10 years. And they've done really well. But during those 10 years, they've gone from 18 year olds, 19, 20 year olds to 30 year olds, their lives have changed dramatically. They've gone from figuring out spending 50 quid on a Friday night going to the local nightclub to committing to buy a mortgage or take out a mortgage to buy a house, committing to other expenses, you know, say I had one person who started to rent a house and got a letter and they were so surprised to receive this letter. They had to pay tax to live in their house. They were like, what is this? I said, well, that's counts. That's to pay for your rebel bins, the police. There's a whole list of things. And, schools aren't teaching, you know, people how to live like this. They're teaching them you need X grade. Why great. So as employers being real in that way, you're able to support them, not just through their professional journey, but in areas of personal, you know, you're not a financial advisor or anything like that, but you can guide them based on your experiences and go, or be empathetic. There are a lot of workplaces where it's don't bring that in here. That's a home problem. You deal with that at home. It stops at the door. That's it. People don't work like that. People want to be in a place where they're comfortable. So you've been a little bit real, allows them to be real. They don't feel the pressure so that when you give somebody a promotion as one of your team, that they've got to be something that they're not.

speaker-1: How do you cope with the overshare? Because there's a lot of times you'll share your challenges with somebody and kind of, it's a thin line, isn't it, between sharing challenges, sharing things and oversharing things that we probably need to keep semi-personal, keep outside the workspace. Do you find that you run into that conflict or?

speaker-2: Not very often, to be honest, but maybe that's because a lot of the people that work at LivePay, we're very close to. We share the challenges that we have, but we also respect everybody's sort of got their own lives as well.

speaker-0: I think it's interesting because in a work environment, ⁓ it's slightly different now running. Obviously it's my own business, but when I was employed and you go to work, it's like a different relationship that you have with those people because you're like close to them because you see them every day and you spend eight hours a day with them or whatever you do, but they're kind of separate from your home life. So you can kind of be a bit more, almost a bit more honest. because there is that separation. I don't know, that's what I used to find anyway. don't know, maybe that's just something about me, but I am, that's what I always think.

speaker-2: No, you're very right there. You have two sorts of friends. You've got those friends that will be there, you know, from the day that you meet them to the day that you die. They're your true friends. Everyone else is a circumstantial friend. You know, your true friends will pick up the phone on a Friday night. They'll hear you going through a problem. They'll be stood at your door going, come on, let's go and have a beer. Let's pick the world up. Everyone else is a circumstantial friend because they're bought to you because of another event. That may be sports, may be leisure, it may be work. And nothing stops any of those friends going beyond that and converting to proper friends. But you do have obviously those sort of two lines. But it's important to recognise that as well. I'm thoroughly aware that when people leave here, for the most part, I would never see them again. I may have got on with them extremely well. We may have had a really good relationship. really enjoyed working with them, have them working for me, they may have equally really enjoyed working here. But there are very few people in reality that, you know, once they go, because the circumstances have changed, you know, it's not that they don't like me necessarily, or I don't like them. It's just the circumstances have changed, they brought us together and now no longer we are.

speaker-0: It's sad, it's sad. So has there ever been a time when being honest or real has actually cost you something?

speaker-2: I to be honest, most of what it's cost is in the vow is to myself and being sort of a little bit vulnerable from there, know, owning up to a mistake, for example, and saying, just, just own it, pick it up, take the punches, whatever happens to come back from that and dust yourself off and go again. I think occasionally that there have been a few instances where You know, I have potentially said more than was a, you know, necessary. ⁓ but I think, yeah, there are a few cases, but again, you just have to kind of navigate that carefully and sort of only share what you're comfortable with, but be aware of, and I suppose it's the same with social media and any other sort of projection. Once you've let go of that, it's gone. It's not yours anymore. If you post something online, your own thoughts, they're not yours anymore. They are gone into the world. So have that sort of same thought process, I think, you know, that you can't call it back once you've let it go. So be comfortable with what you're letting it go. But that doesn't mean to say that you can't be real. It just means to say that, you know, there are certain things in life that you don't need to share or you don't want to share. You know, there's no reason to share those. a fair few things, you know, within relationships, personal elements of life that you are just not relevant to others. But that doesn't mean to say that you can't say, I'm having a really tough time at the minute, you know, I've got a family member that's got this ailment. I've got a friend that's got this circumstance or I'm going through a breakup. But equally that can turn around to benefit you. Because if you have one of your team going through that and they felt comfortable enough to share that with you and you can support them through any problems that they're having, they will be a lot more of the general hope isn't certainly in my experience in, I say all cases, but a fair few cases. Those people will thank you for that and will appreciate that you've given them a little bit of slack while they've had a difficult time on the basis that they are a good person and somebody that you want around you and they'll, you know, hopefully when you have a difficult day will reciprocate.

speaker-0: So for somebody listening then, if they're struggling a little bit with this, because they're in the place of, they know they're not being real and they're trying to almost live up to that, the expectation of others or being who they think they need to be, what's like one thing you would suggest they could change tomorrow to just start going down this road? Because it is, it's a personal thing, isn't it? And it's that being able to be open to being vulnerable. And that means you put yourself out there and all of that, which can be really... Not very nice. What would you suggest they do?

speaker-2: I would start with just letting the guard down gently. Don't rush out there and throw everything all over the place. You know, you're not, there's no need to be in sort of that situation, but just start to relax and your true colors, true self will shine through that just by relaxing a little bit. You know, if you feel that you've got to walk into work and you've got to be straight and sharp and extremely well-spoken, sir. You know, there are things like that where you can just start to gradually relax that a little bit. So I'm from Mansfield. My accent is what it is. spent three years living in South Yorkshire. So I've kind of got a bit of everything. I'm married to somebody from North Yorkshire, so my accent's all over the place. But people will relate to that because I'm not sat there going, yes, sir, no, sir, et cetera. This is just the way I am. you know, be true to yourself and hold your own values strong as well. So if there are things that you think, no, that's the way it should be. So for example, whether you call it a complex or not, I've always taken it that, you know, when I present myself professionally, that I wear a suit. I always wear a suit. I wear a suit every single day to work, shirt, tie, the lot. you know, hopefully, you know, projects out ⁓ an air of who I am, who I want to be. But equally, that doesn't mean to say that I can't let that guard down a little bit. And we can have a real conversation about family work, life in general, you know, beyond the boring door questions of items in the news, the weather, and is everything all right? You know, you can sort of wind yourself back a little bit. They say just relaxing. is often the best thing and people will know that a lot of people will look at that and you've only got to think if you go and buy a car for example and you go to the stereotypical car sales sort of place you know you're going to get a 20 year old lad who thinks he knows everything is going to force you that car down your throat and you just go I don't want that. Whereas if he you know he's probably a really cool guy he enjoys his cars that's why he's there if he was to say Look, this car, you've got a family of four. This, this is a two seater sports car. Whilst I get your vision, I think you might be better. Just, come and have a look at this car. Got, got an idea. And you know, that, that would change the whole dynamic because that person has gone from, being that you want a sports car. I'm going to sell you a sports car too. I think, you know, it's, it's good. I like the idea. And, know, but if you're getting rid of your, you know, nice family wagon. how are you gonna swap that out for something else? Just being real with it, I think a lot of people will benefit from.

speaker-1: I think some of that is being real. Some of it I think is being vulnerable to an extent or sharing your problems to an extent. One of things that sometimes I preach is that if you or everybody wants that guru, especially as you're growing up or as you move into a new position, and there's loads of gurus out there and people that want to help you, but they can't help you because you never tell them that you need help. It's definitely a British thing that we struggle with is being real and saying, actually, I don't know everything or I'm struggling or I wanted 20 % growth this year, but we're looking more like 5%. We might actually drop because this big client. And when you say that to people, they will either A, not care, which is fair, or B, they'll say, do you know what? I had that journey myself 10 years ago, five years ago, my friends just been through that journey and this is what they did or would you like an introduction? And you build that real relationship with people. If people have enjoyed the realness of your talk today, Mark, or of this conversation, who is your ideal client and how would they get in touch with you?

speaker-2: In terms of the ideal clients, we are working with companies targeting employee sizes around 50 employees through to 1,000 employees is the main area that we're focused on. So the smaller end, we will accommodate those because they have accountants and things that generally deal with payroll at that level. And they usually do it as part of other services, whereas having our own payroll systems and software put us in a very unique position to be able to offer the high quality service that you would get from an accountant, but actually with a much more robust technological platform. But equally, if you have a company that is larger than that, and we have a few companies that are significantly larger than that, we will work with those as well. ⁓ And they fit. nicely within there and I say the product will run comfortably up to 10,000 employees and has done previously.

speaker-1: would they get in touch with you Mark?

speaker-2: The easiest way to get in touch is literally look up Live PayPayROMP and you'll find me there. I'm on all of the main socials, so you can find me on any of those. LinkedIn is usually the easiest way. But to be honest, the best thing, pick up the phone, call the office eight seconds later, ⁓ maximum of eight seconds later, our support team will be on the end of the phone and they'll put you straight through to me.

speaker-0: I love it. Thank you very much for joining us, Mark.

speaker-2: Now, as you're very welcome.

speaker-1: Wow, Mark is such a cool, calm, collected character and really is living his what one thing of keeping it real. What was your big takeaway from that Haley?

speaker-0: Well, firstly, I thought it was great to see somebody with such an established business embracing the one thing of being real. think the thing that I took away from it mostly is I suppose it's a bit of a reflection that truthfully, I don't know if when I started my business and I started going to networking and things like that, I don't... Even if somebody had said it to me, I don't think I would have been brave enough or vulnerable enough to be entirely real about things. What did you think?

speaker-1: I tend to be a classic oversharer, so I likely would be vulnerable. I think one of the things is maybe to ask that first question and share something and then see whether the other person is reciprocal to that. Because quite often you've not found somebody who wants to have a genuine chat with you. found someone and we've all done this. We've all signed up to have a meeting or a coffee and ended up having 30 minutes of a monologue. somebody just telling you all about their business with no kind of feedback. And I think some of this is finding, you know, birds of a feather flock together. It's asking those questions, being real, being genuine. And I think that will attract or even push away the wrong people and attract the right people. Is there anything that you would change in your business moving forward or anything that you would have changed in your business at the start, having spoke to Mark?

speaker-0: I believe that now I am real with everybody. don't think there's, know, well, is that entirely true? I think there's a little bit of a business mask, being completely honest, being real. However, the thing I would change is when meeting, you know, because you go out and about, you meet lots of different people when you're in the kind of networking world and trying to grow a business. I think if I meet people who are perhaps towards the start of their journey, I think I would be more mindful of trying to encourage them to be more real and that it's okay to not have it all together. Is there anything that you would change?

speaker-1: I think taking from that point you've just said. think it's so important, this is maybe a bigger lesson, is that often in life for me, we're always looking for that guru, we're looking for that person who's gonna, you you see it on the TV, don't you? And you see these great kind of duos where someone more experienced takes the young upstart and they become great. But to find that person, you need to be open, honest, vulnerable, and you need to be showing people that you're on that journey. And as you've said that you're one of the things that you've just said is that you would love to help somebody who is at the start of their journey, but you can only do that if they're being real with you. And I think that is the real crux for all of us is that when we're talking to a bigger or superstar business, I see they just want us to be real. They probably speak to a hundred different business owners who have told them how fantastic they are, how well it's going. The reality is they're just normal people and they want to have a normal conversation and understand who you are. And maybe you won't do business together, but maybe they can give you some great tips or maybe they can help you on your journey. Do you think that's going to change the way that you engage with those bigger businesses when you're at networking?

speaker-0: think it will make me more mindful of not... I suppose the thing is what we do or what I do sometimes or what people tend to do is you don't not be real, you just don't tell the whole truth. So you hold things back a little bit. That's what I know. That's me, definitely. And I think what this conversation will... help is to be more mindful when you're meeting with those kind of businesses and business owners that actually, if you were just, if you shared a little bit more and were a little bit more real, that you actually might get something more out of it that can actually help you in your journey, which is exactly the same way round flipping it. If I was speaking to somebody at the start of their journey, I would want to help them and do better. So I think that's... That's what I, that's probably what I take away from it all. Is there anything that you will implement in your business from having this conversation?

speaker-1: I think it's really tricky for me, the differential between being an open book, which I think a few people describe me as, and holding information back and knowing the right amount of information to release. I think, in short, yeah, I definitely do. I think I will aim, especially in network meetings, to try and ask more probing questions and to be more open.

speaker-2: E

speaker-1: about my own situation. And I think it's something that I will have to work hard at because it's knowing when to draw the lines, when to stop, when to open up. I think it's really about building rapport and just being a good person really, isn't it? And I think that was the very essence of where Mark drew us back to.

speaker-0: It was, I think it's really interesting though, because if you're that person that is, and to be fair, it doesn't matter what stage of business you're at, if you're a person that's nervous about being real and putting yourself out there in that way, how do you? It'd be interesting to explore what are the things that you can do to try to help you be a little bit more real and a little bit more honest with those conversations. again, going back full circle almost, I know at the beginning, wouldn't have mattered what anybody said to me. There's just no way I would have. I would have shared some things, let's just say. But that's, think, just part of who I am. So I think it's a really interesting concept and I think it's a really good one thing to make people think.

speaker-1: That's maybe the one part of the canned script that you have. Maybe you share, you know, look at the moment, we've not picked up any sales so far this year, our ideal customer's this, but we're struggling to get into those meetings. What are your challenges for this year? And if they respond well, then you can open up and maybe give a bit more. And if they respond with, well, you know, we're closing every deal at the moment, our biggest challenge is that we're working out where to park the yacht. Do you park a yacht? I don't know, but where to sell the yacht to?

speaker-0: Well, thank you so much for joining us. We hope you found one thing to help move your business forward.

speaker-1: And if you did, please do us a favor, share this episode with someone else who's on the same journey. We'll see you next time on What One Thing, and please feel free to have a look at our LinkedIn page and the clips that we post on there.