How Manufacturers Can Win More Business: Turn Marketing Into Sales - René Power

Rene: more fundamentally it's about it's about starting conversations.

Hayley Baxter: So you start a business and you're like, right, well, how do I get clients? Oh, I need to post on social media. Oh, I need to have a website.

Rene: services businesses, we're probably the other way around. You know, we do a lot of great marketing But we're probably not so hot on the on the sales side

Phil: It's the fear of making those direct outreach.

Rene: if you take the pressure off yourself and maybe don't make it all about, you know, sales and make it more about starting conversations

Hayley Baxter: Well, actually, the truth is you need to just go out and have conversations with people.

Rene: interested people become interesting

Phil: Rennie, welcome to the podcast. And how I'd like to start off is before your what one thing, what kind of built up to it or what made you move in that direction?

Rene: First of all, thanks for having me on. Big fan. And you know, Phil, we go way back, so it's really great to be on here and you're doing fantastic work with the with the What One Thing podcast. I think what I'm going to talk about today really is born out of, I guess, the challenges that I've faced over the last five or six years, and it seems that every year since 2020, we've been hit with different challenges that just makes business hard, probably harder than it than it needs to be. And harder than it's ever needed to be. So it's real lift experience to be honest, and I need to you know put the pennies in the coffers.

Phil: I completely agree. I think at the moment we've got this rise in energy price, but we've had COVID. I think all industries as well, but especially manufacturing, have seen this mergers and acquisitions getting bigger and bigger where you might be working with a firm and then two weeks later you find out they've actually been acquired and are you gonna stay on as the as the incumbent or as the incumbent coming from the other side? So we've got these market conditions, Rene. you're battling through, trying to put pennies in the bank. What is your what one thing to boost the business through?

Rene: I think it's and it's really practical and it may it might be so blindingly obvious to people that are listening to it that they actually think it's so obvious that people don't do it. don't forget, I I work in industrial marketing, so a lot of my clients are manufacturers. So I'm not only providing mark marketing services to manufacturers, but I'm also helping them secure and keep their ideal clients for the longest time. but the one thing is to Go back over your historical sales over, say, a two-year period and identify people that you're maybe not working with, that you quoted and maybe never got anywhere with, or you know, whatever whatever happened, they've not been buying, they've not been transacting over the last couple of years. And be brave and ask if you can help them, ask for a review, ask if there's something you can you can do for them because a lot of experience I've had, particularly over the last six to twelve months of doing this, is it on earth. that's quite a lot of opportunities. So, you know, really audit who you've who you've worked with over the last couple of years that maybe you're not working with right now and put together a plan for getting back in touch with those people.

Hayley Baxter: So what was going on in your business that led you to decide to take this action and where did the idea come from?

Rene: it's an interesting one and Phil will know, you know, I go you know we go back a number of years, so I'm big on organic marketing, I'm big on building a brand, creating content, using lead lead magnets and useful information to try and hook prospects and turn them into customers. And the way you do that is by positioning yourself as an expert in what you do. So I practice what I preach, I do a lot of talks, you know, it's great when I get invited onto podcasts like this. I do a lot of training, I speak at industrial shows and I put an awful lot of content out on LinkedIn and places like that, send email newsletters and all that good stuff. but you know what it's great but it's also quite passive and it's not always immediate you don't always get an immediate return from it. So I realized I had to be a bit more direct. And I'm not a salesperson by nature, find the whole selling thing you know quite uncomfortable. But out of necessity really I thought I know what I need I need a certain number of clients or need to land a certain number of projects or project types so I'm gonna get in touch with people in my network and see if I can help them. And lo and behold, over this year, it's been a really good year for re-establishing some collaborations that I was doing as far back as pre-COVID. and there's a whole story around that and how my business evolved, you know, from pre and post-COVID and why I focused on certain things and then now going back to some of the things I was doing before 2020 and actually you know it's bearing a lot of fruit. So it's been it's been a really interesting experience doing that.

Phil: Really like the combination because I think most people who start a business have moved from engineer in your terms marketing engineer to business owner. And we start off with that passive, as you say, you give a speech, you're trying to lead things in, you're hoping that promotion. But actually reaching out and having those direct conversations is so good because often people see some content and think, god, yeah, Rennie, I I really want to work with him. And then six months later. because we've all got this a da attention gap, we've forgotten. But then that that phone call, how did you get in touch with them? Was it email? Was it phone call? What how did you set your plan?

Rene: combination of things. I mean, yeah, yeah, like I said, I'm still I'm not I'm not the best salesperson. I'm not gonna ring somebody seven times till they answer the phone or you know, or try and, you know, harangue people to get on the phone. it might be that they're a you know a good LinkedIn contact and I'm I'll send a I'll send a very conversationally based message through LinkedIn. I'd always look to try and make sure I've checked out their profile. One, because so that they see that I've checked out their profile or maybe liked a couple of posts or even commented on some posts. But really, you know, you don't want it to be a shock. so I'll normally kind of say, I notice you've just done this or done that, or congratulations on the award or whatever it is. It's been a little while since we had a conversation, you know, could we get you know five or ten minutes on the phone, see where you're at and see you know if there's an opportunity to you know you know to help or introduce something new that I'm doing. and the hit rate's not bad. So you can do it that way, do it through email. but I'd I'd or you know, if I put them in a WhatsApp chat I can do you can do it that way but you want to make it conversational and fairly light but not disguise the fact that you're interesting in interested in having a having a work conversation and we shouldn't really shy away from that I think we're we're we're kind of encouraged that we we shouldn't ask for work but we shouldn't ask to help people but you know in in my experience you know I think it's I think it's a good thing and if you're approaching the right people with the right kind of offer you know the the hit rate on you know turning some of those connection contacts into into a callback and things like that are probably quite high because you're going back to people who know who you are anyway. They might have worked with you, they might not have, but you might have worked through a process of doing quotes or specifications or whatever. So you're really leaning into something that's a little bit warm, it's not the cold prospecting. and I just think it's an opportunity that you know that a lot of business owners and and and new business professionals kind of miss.

Hayley Baxter: like the boring legwork that no one wants to do, isn't it?

Rene: It really is. It really is. But you know, that's what, you know, certainly from my perspective, you know, marketing, you know, if you're working in B2C, you know, it's about, you know, do you know, delivering a brand reputation to to millions, you know, in in B2B is probably the numbers are a lot smaller, but actually, you know, the best marketing, whether it's an advert or an email or whatever it is, is sub is should be speaking to one person about a problem or a challenge they're facing and and your positioning yourself your product, your service as the as as the thing that's going to help them get through you know that this this challenge that they're facing. So again, if we keep it in mind that it's always all about people dealing with people, then adding a direct approach to to whatever you're doing, you know, has to be has to be a good thing because as humans we crave connection, you know, and we crave, you know, we want to be recognized, we want to be acknowledged for equally, you know, we we we crave that kind of you know, chemistry and relationship and all that good stuff. So, you know, I think, you know, the right thing landing at the right time in the right way, that's what good marketing's all about. in manufacturing it's really, really important to do that because you know typically you know depending on who you're trying to target inside a manufacturer, if you're selling a product, it might be it might you know it might be the C suite, it might be, you know, the guy, you know, the guys in charge of the shop floor or R and D or whatever. for me it's probably more, you know, business owner, maybe a sales director. Most manufacturing businesses don't normally have a marketing person unless they're of a certain size, so it's going to be a sales or a commercial director that's probably ninety-five percent sales. 5% marketing. But they're the sort of people that I loved, you know, I love I love to work with because you know, particularly the family owned, you know, kind of second generation businesses that you'll find on industrial estates all around the country. you know, they don't have things like marketing strategy, they don't have content plans, they don't, you know, they don't systematically go about promoting themselves in a consistent and clear way. So lots of opportunity, but equally, you know, there are a lot of obstacles in there as well.

Hayley Baxter: So if somebody's listening, because you touched on it a little bit around not being comfortable asking for the sale or being a natural salesperson, how did you make yourself do it or how did you work through getting over that and actually just getting on and doing it?

Rene: couple of things. I've got pictures of my four kids all around the office so they kinda keep you honest and keep you grounded and humble and remind you that, you know, you can't look about at the work all day today. You've got to, you know Do some do you can put some effort in and get some money in, so there's that. but I think more fundamentally it's about it's about starting conversations. And and and if you market in a way that you're trying to talk to thousands all the time, then you you know you're not necessarily gonna start conversations that way. It will, you know, you're hoping your content resonates and it might engage people enough to want to get in touch. But it for me, it's good, it's brand stuff, it's a bit passive. I think you know, being more direct and more intentional. gives you a greater chance of starting conversations. And at the end of the day, that's that's what we want as as business owners, as as freelancers, you know, whatever. So, you know manufacturing businesses that do that and they have sales teams and they're on the phone and they're knocking on doors and you know they're running their regions and they're ri keeping on top of their distributors and doing all the right things from a sales perspective, they're normally falling down on the marketing side. I think for services businesses, we're probably the other way around. You know, we do a lot of great marketing and we try and you know inform and educate our markets and tell them why they need to do things the way the way you know the way that we do them and and all that good stuff. But we're probably not so hot on the on the sales side and even if we remove the word sales with you know conversation starting it just takes a little bit of the pressure off doesn't it because it's like if you go to a networking event you know you're not going to walk in there and talk to somebody and walk out with an order but if you walk out with a conversation and a commitment to let's have a let's have a call let's find out more about each other see who we can introduce each other to or whatever then it's just about how you move things on. And and I think if you if you take the pressure off yourself and maybe don't make it all about, you know, sales and make it more about starting conversations and discussing opportunities, you know, it's gonna it's gonna feel a little bit more natural and probably feel a little bit easier.

Phil: What I really liked was the the obviousness of it. So before sending a message, because let's be honest, we all get spammed with messages, a couple of likes on posts, a genuine and it's a shame you can't put a fingerprint on your comment

Rene: Mm-hmm.

Phil: to prove that it's you and not some AI bot, but a comment

Rene: Yeah. Yeah.

Phil: on the post and then a question to them that involves the fact because I know when I get little video messages that have got my name in them and have maybe got a reference to my website or something like that. They land so much harder than the generic hundred and I think so many people are going down the Apollo I.O. route of here's my customer

Rene: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: that I want, send them a million messages, let's go. If they don't respond to the first one, hey René, I'm just checking in again. Hey René, this is the third time.

Rene: Yeah, I mean and then that awful third message that they all have where they're like, if you don't come back to this one, then you know we'll let you go sort of thing. And yeah, I d I find all of that stuff just so nasty and and nasty and vulgar. But yeah, fundamentally I think you have to play you have to play in in public. So, you know, you do all the right things in public on people's posts and all of that good stuff. Don't forget, of course, you know, if you, you know, and there's a very credible strategy, Gary Vaynerchuk, a US entrepreneur turned, you know, social media marketing guru, runs runs a couple of huge agencies in the US now. G Gary Vaynerchuk, he's written loads of books, including jab jab left hook, I think. And basically he came with something which is like the five cent comment strategy. So you know, if you make commenting on influential people's posts your thirty minutes a day on LinkedIn, you you'll probably get a lot more sway and a lot more visibility and a lot more reach than you will just put your own posts out to a percentage of your audience. So what that means is in the UK you might follow you know, Peter Jones, Theophitas, you and whoever else, bunch of dragons, you know, Stephen Bartley, whoever whoever tickles your boat. And as long as you're in the comments there where there are hundreds, if not thousands, of other people, you know, you're commenting. A lot of people are seeing it. Some people are liking it. They might check your profile, see what you're all about. So it's about being where your people are as well. So the public thing is one thing, playing in public. But the you know the kind of making sure you take it into a one-to-one conversation, massively important. And yeah, you want to dial down the cringe. you know make it you know as authentic and as conversational as you can so maybe don't even bring in the idea of helping first just you know congratulate them on something people love to be flattered you know they've won an award or they had something published in Forbes or whatever it is drop them a note and say hey saw you did you saw you did that that's really cool you know how did you you know how how did that come about and start a conversation about it and you know if they come back to you then you know interested people become interesting you know

Phil: I I'm loving all of this. I mean we've almost gone into what three things here, haven't we? But I'm I'm I'm really enjoying and no, I love

Rene: It was a risk. It was a risk.

Phil: it. I absolutely love it. So we've we've come to a what's your strategy around this then? Because I I'm always trying to and I think this is an engineer's mindset, I'm always trying to find a problem because I love a problem to solve and if you ever want an IT person to solve a problem, you just tell them that the previous IT person couldn't solve it 'cause it's too tricky and you've now got eight hours of their time for free. What was your approach? Was your aim of the LinkedIn campaign to get an in person meet? Or was it to get a phone call? Or or did you not have that kind of strategy? Were you just, you know what, I need to get the pennies of the bank. I know I've spoken to these people before. I'm gonna roll the dice and get in touch.

Rene: I think you've got a yeah, you've got to you you've got to be cool, you know. We know if you get hard sales in in in your inbox, wherever that inbox is, from somebody you've never worked with, you've got no idea how good they are, or whatever, it's gonna leave you feeling pretty cold. It's almost like it's it's it's the kind of first date analogy, but going to third base, isn't it? Just it always feels a bit vulgar when you get somebody coming on and saying, we just looked at your website and it scores forty six on this particular thing and you're missing this, this, this, this, that, and that. And we've got a firm of you know developers. developers out in in India that can fix this for you for kind of 27p you're interested and you're like, no, go away. but there's probably some element of they did actually try to do some research in there. Some of the points they're making are might be valid, but just the way they've done it, it's like smash you know and it's like who who wants that so I would and and equally as you as you pointed out you know do you push for a call you know the kind of calendarly drop link droppers you know they you know connect and it's not even connect and pitch anymore or or pitch slap or whatever it's called it's connect and calendarly drop. let's jump on a call let's jump everybody got jump on a call let's jump jump on a call but you book it in my calendar it's like it's all a bit presumptive isn't it so I think start with the chat see where that goes and if there's an opportunity to just get on and keep it tight, keep it small. It could be a video call, it can be a phone call. A lot of the my audience, particularly manufacturers, they don't want to be faffing about jumping on teams and all of that stuff, you know, to keep it as light and as easy to administer as as possible and it's a it's a check-in. It's what are you up to? You know what you're trying to achieve, you know, I'm doing this sort of stuff now, you know, there's an opportunity, can I put something in front of you? Can have a chat? So you look into, you know, sandler sales training and these sorts of people will always say, you know, make sure you leave with the next action. so you're not going in for the kill at step one, it might be like step five. but you just want to get the commitment to the next thing. Can I call you next Tuesday? Can I, you know, can I send you something through and then and then check you've received it. So you you do you you've got to look at your process of how you get in front of somebody and keep it as simple as you can, but you know, be respectful of people's time and think, How do I like to be, you know, approached and keep a little bit of that in mind because we don't always We don't always approach people in the way that we would accept the approach ourselves.

Hayley Baxter: It's really good, it's really interesting. I've got like about 25 notes written down of different things you've said. It's really, really interesting.

Rene: Well actually, you know, I I know I know we talk we started out talking about being brave and and and and looking at your legacy clients and customers and things and looking for opportunities in there. And there will be some for anybody who's been running a business for a period of time. There will be opportunities to go back and have a chat with people. But really I suppose the one thing that wraps around it all is that kind of adding a bit more one to one direct conversation to what you're doing. Because at the minute we're all throwing stuff into the ether and hoping for the best, aren't we, if we're honest, you know, whether it's social, email, PR, going to events, networking, whatever it is. but let's have in our mind, you know, let's look at our network. We've all probably got a couple of thousand contacts each. We've probably got two X clients and customers. Let's try and find a core group of kind of twenty or thirty and see if we can work a little bit more deeply you know with some of them and you'll probably get better results.

Hayley Baxter: So how do you deal with the rejection or the no, you know, just non-response and the motivation to keep going?

Rene: no's are fine. Nose are great, I love nose. it's the ghostings that I don't like and Phil will have seen, I've probably posted about this a few times over the last year year or so. I'm not a fan of it. I try not to treat people the same way. Obviously if it's a cold approach, you I don't feel particularly like I need to reply to every cold approach that comes in. But equally, if somebody if I've asked somebody to quote or ask somebody to look at something and then it's not for me, you've got to go and tell You know, it's just horrible, isn't it? You know, 'cause I'm sat on somebody's list somewhere as a perpetual follow up and it's not good for me, it's not good for them, you know. So I think, you know, that there is and I don't know whether it's you know new generation coming into the workplace or or things like that. or people are busy or people are scared of saying no. But there's a lot more of that goes on and I don't think it's particularly helpful because until you get told no, you're going to keep you know, ring in and check in and ring in and check in and you know, we're gonna move forward and you know, and I've had sort of some challenges this year where, you know, I've worked with we're with probably three or four different organizations. You know, we've done NDAs, we've done specifications, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're gonna start work. and three of them have been kicked into the long grass in September, which, you know, it's a sign of of of of some kind of commitment, I suppose. but also it's you know, I had expectations that all of those projects were going to start. So it leaves leaves you with some gaps. so, you know, it is it is a challenge because, you know, you do you feed off the energy you get and if you're being given a sign that you know business is forthcoming and then suddenly for whatever reason it's pulled, you know, it's a bit it is a bit of a it is a bit of a shock to the system, isn't it? And then you suddenly you've got a gap you need to fill or you've got a an amount of time or or a resource that you need to redeploy. So and that happens with manufacturing businesses as well. you know, probably more so and it's probably bigger risks because, you know, they're sat on stock, you know, they're sat on r raw materials, you know, the energy costs are running a factory, got people stood around, you know, not twiddling their thumbs, you know, g having to do stock takes because the orders aren't landing into the production line. So yeah, there's a knock on effect to to to people, you know, not taking responsibility for for their own, you know, procurement decisions. but like anything else, you just have to brush it off and carry on doing it. We haven't got time to sit and lick our wounds when we work for ourselves. We need to we need to get on. We need to get on, which is where this this strategy hopefully helps people, you know.

Hayley Baxter: So I'm going to do some quick questions now then. I've never done this before. I just thought of it this morning. what

Rene: I'll try my best. Are these like one word answers?

Hayley Baxter: one thing do you wish every manufacturing business understood about marketing?

Rene: Ooh, okay. that it is more than the promotional P. So in marketing there's there's seven Ps and and the promotional B is just one of them. It'd be nice to think that they valued the rest of it.

Hayley Baxter: So what one change have you seen make the biggest difference for manufacturing companies?

Rene: I think manufacturing companies that put some kind of content strategy together and and have some clarity and consistency to what they do, bring it to life with their people, you know, have some personality, they're the ones that typically stand out.

Phil: What do you see as the biggest mistake that manufacturers make when trying to win work?

Rene: that's a really good question. I would think that they probably rely on a lot of outdated in and i i market irrelevant assets. So manufacturing companies will typically have brochures, they'll have data sheets, you know, stuff like that, but you know, probably lack the kind of cultural aspect of, you know, what makes a good partnership. So they probably play down people, expertise. process, why we do it the way we do it, you know, all that good stuff, you know, so but we miss quite a lot of the kind of cultural stuff that would bond client, customer and and a supplier together.

Phil: love that I shouldn't interrupt because it's quick for our questions, but I love that because we find ourselves working with some second generation manufacturing and very much that second generation aren't the brochures, are they? And that's why they're able to really get good 'cause they're all about SEO and what can we do and the digital and yeah.

Rene: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. If if you're working with a lo if you're working with an SME manufacturer that is say You know, twenty-five to fifty people, you know, twenty-five to seventy-five thousand square foot, bunch of CNC machines in there, there's load of you know, good stuff going on. and there might be two to ten million. Second generation means that these the the these sons and daughters or or or business managers, they know what Hubspot is, you know, they know downloads, they lead generation, they know bit of SEO, they might even know a bit of a bit of the AI stuff, probably not. but yeah that you know 30 years ago it was dad and his contacts on the golf course. So the world's moved and and print mag media and you know and the trade shows and stuff like that. So the world's moved significantly. and I think you know second generation and beyond you know, management teams in manufacturers latching onto that digital space and adding that cultural aspect to to to to their marketing are the ones that are really gonna win as we as we move forward.

Phil: I love it. And this is this is a great question. So Brace, take a breath for this one, Riley. If every manufacturer listening implemented one thing tomorrow, what should it be?

Rene: well if they need if they need sales, if they're if they're if they're in a bit of a peaks and troughs cyclical or seasonal demand, then you've got to try and level that out. So you level that out by creating more conversations. How do you do that? You do it either direct through sales, but increasingly by equipping those salespeople with the right sort of go-to-market assets. So you know I'm a big fan of going beyond brochures, websites, all that sort of thing, you know, maybe using scorecards, you know, explainer videos, webinars, you know, things like that, you know, to really embed your knowledge and your expertise. So it it boils back down to that kind of meeting the customers where they are and looking to try and solve problems and have one to one conversations.

Phil: I love that and I'm so grateful that you didn't just say hi a me.

Rene: Well obviously if you're a manufacturing business of a certain size and you know you're kind of struggling with this stuff, by all means get in touch.

Phil: And if somebody has listened to you eloquently talk marketing, what one thing, manufacturing, who is your ideal client and how can they get in touch with you?

Rene: well it's interesting, Phil, because we you know we've had conversations and I guess you guys do this podcast together because you've both got, you know, an ideal client type in mind as well. So I think for us we're probably looking at You know, it's gotta be a company that's that's prepared to spend. working with me isn't necessarily cheap cheap. I would say it's more cost effective and more rewarding than recruiting a marketing manager. you know, you bring in a marketing manager for thirty grand a year, they're gonna spend half their time at the water cooler or chatting up Debian accounts, or on Facebook or LinkedIn or wherever they spend their day and probably be spending half their time being vaguely productive. Whereas if you bring in somebody like me for less a year, You know, there's three things I do. I do I do you know big auditory facilitated workshop thing. We then look at your go-to-market assets, which might be website, video, social, email, PR, trade shows. And then if you want me to run it for you, you know, as an outsourced marketing department, I can do that as well. And that will come in less over a 12-month period than hiring a you know, a 30 grand full-time marketing manager, but you're getting essentially marketing director level experience 30 years. So that's ideal for companies that are probably ticking over a couple of mil, anywhere up to I mean up to, you I've worked with businesses that are 35, 50 million turnover, trying to get to a hundred and they didn't have marketing person or a marketing team. But the sweet spot is probably you know, two, you know, two to fifteen million. you know, so that means that their, you know, the marketing spend is well within their you know, remit. and you and I'm working with an MD or a sales or a commercial director, and there might be a marketing junior in house that I'm putting an arm around and giving them a bit of structure and a bit of bit of clarity. They might be doing some of the, you know, you know, some of the leg work and some of the content creation in house, but yeah, I'd be I'd be picking up the kind of strategy side of things, the content, you know, dealing with the media, you know, know, getting their directors on speaking at events, panels, podcasts if they want it, and and building a brand and building interest you know that way.

Hayley Baxter: And how do they get in touch with you, René?

Rene: I'm really easy to find. So that it's it's Rene Power, R-E-N-E, P O W E R. I think the branding's pretty consistent online. So it's this face with these glasses on a purple background, just like Phil. I went purple. It's very regal purple, so it's it's regal, it's reassuringly expensive, like Waitros and John Lewis, I'm told. so you find me online, LinkedIn's probably the quickest, easiest place to find me, get a sense of what I'm about, loads of content on there. there's any newsletter you can subs or books subscribe to and you can get me, you know, through through the DMs and the websites renepower.co.uk.

Hayley Baxter: What a lovely, lovely guy René was. I've never actually spoken to him before, so it was lovely to meet him and have a chat with him in person. I've got about five things written down on my piece of paper that I took away from that, as well as the one thing he actually shared. What did you think?

Phil: I I love the simplicity. I loved the and it always makes me think that there is no magic bullet, there is no super secret that somebody's doing. Yes, people come up with really clever marketing ideas from time to time, but the actual simplicity is you want to look at somebody's content, be interested in them, show that you're interested, and then send them a message, and that message can be complimentary, but it also says Yeah, I'm working with similar businesses or I'm doing these projects, yeah. Would this be of any interest? I think that's the perfect warmish approach. So I I really like that and that's made me think, okay, how can I use that and develop that within my own business? How about yourself, Haley?

Hayley Baxter: thing that I thought was really interesting was when he said that manufacturing businesses tend to focus 80 to 90 percent of their time on the sales, but then 10 to 20 percent on the marketing and service based businesses you typically find that's the other way round. I thought that was really, really interesting that, you know, us falling into the bucket of service-based businesses do spend a lot of time, a lot of conversations trying to do marketing, looking at social media, looking at how we can do this, how we can do that. But we don't, the sales bit is almost left. I thought that was a really interesting observation that I took away from it.

Phil: It's the fear of making those direct outreach. I think that's where a lot of us and I'm gonna use the word I think a lot of us cowered away from doing direct outreach. And strangely I don't think that it's because we're worried about the rejection. I think we're worried about just putting ourselves out there in the first place. I think most of us are actually happy to get a no and we can kind of move on with life. I think it's all the bit before the no that really hurts. What do you think to that?

Hayley Baxter: I agree and I also think... When you think about big companies that employ sales teams, those sales teams have skills of being a salesperson. And it's those skills that we fear that we don't, that we shy away from doing. That's what I think in it all.

Phil: Do you think do you think we shy away from those skills or do you think we've not trained those skills and we've not practiced it?

Hayley Baxter: I think I agree with you about the not trained not practicing and that so it's a weakness but even if we were trained in those schools and could do it in the right way or a trained way, I just don't think we would because I just don't think that's where being a salesperson and doing that kind of work is where our strengths lie.

Phil: My thought is that we might be strong on those, but we procrastinate because we don't enjoy it. And

Hayley Baxter: Yes, yeah.

Phil: everyone to an extent is the best salesperson in the business up until maybe two million, or you can hire this inch group, because you it's only you that really understands what problems you solve, where you want the business to go forward, how you want to drive the business. Until you've got it where you've got a vision and a value and all those pieces because you've got your staff all beaten into them. So I wonder what the underlying cause of service business is going for the marketing, because it is to a large extent an easier option. But I wonder again if it's that engineering option that sales is very much people, whereas marketing Although it should be people, you can actually use Chat GPT or Copilot and you can write articles and there's no interaction with it and you can refine them and go back and over and over. Whereas a conversation, once you've said those words, you can't pause, stop, delete them, go back, have a think about it, feed it through AI and and say a sentence again.

Hayley Baxter: Yeah, and I also believe that marketing people in the world are really good. So you start a business and you're like, right, well, how do I get clients? Oh, I need to post on social media. Oh, I need to have a website. Oh, I need to do this. Well, actually, the truth is you need to just go out and have conversations with people.

Phil: Yeah, I could cur it would be great to be that ninja that just had a one page website but was getting so much business because you were out proactively having conversations, speaking at gig and you hadn't focused on the website because you've got so many leads coming in anyway, that why would you focus on the website? And I know some manufacturing businesses like that that are, you know, B to B that have made their as Rene said, made their conversations on the golf course, you know, and they've got enough business coming in and the website is just a one pager just to show that they're still alive.

Hayley Baxter: I also think the interesting and interesting, another point that Reni made in that conversation was about just getting the next commitment when you're doing those conversations. I thought that was really interesting. Just get the next commitment about, we'll speak to you on Tuesday. let's have a call on Friday. we're going to this like keeping that trail going and not letting it be like a would you like to a call no that's the end of it I thought that was a really interesting concept as well

Phil: I agree. We do a prospective business review in our peer group and it's always what's the next step. You know, I've been out to Haley, I've I've provo proposed given her a proposal. We did it in person, she seemed really keen. When you next speak to her, she says she's gonna get back to me in a few weeks. Right, okay, well would it have been better to book a call in a month and say, Can we can we see what the results are from that? Yeah, whether there's any questions. If you get back to us sooner than that, fantastic. But if not, at least we've got a marker drawn where we can say this proposal review is going to go through and be concluded on this date.

Hayley Baxter: Yeah, it's really, need to, that's one thing I'm gonna take away and try to implement that one thing. Well, we really hope you've been,

Phil: So many one things.

Hayley Baxter: I know there is in this episode. We really hope that you've enjoyed listening to this manufacturing edition of What One Thing.

Phil: And if you did, we'd love it if you could like and share this with your friends and colleagues. Thank you very much for listening to What One Thing.

Hayley Baxter: Super.